I have to comment on the recent video I have submitted to Momentum Video Magazine. The Benign Intervention in Rifle Canyon, Colorado was climbed by Andy Reather. Andy has been one of the sole pioneers for Rifle development and route progression. The amount of work, vision, and effort it takes a person like Andy is far greater than people understand it is. With Rifle, a person needs to get permission from the City Hall, have a proposal, a plan, and hopefully get permission to proceed with bolting. That deserves NOTHING but praise and respect. This route in particular was the ONLY route Andy has EVER called CLOSED. He fell in love with the project and its moves. Dave Graham and I left the Red River Gorge during a week spell of rain…LAME!!! We decided to check out some of Andy’s new routes like Benign Intervention, which was a challenge for Dave Graham and myself. We went to the cliff in hopes of trying some of the .14+’s …when we arrived there was one red tag closing off the Dope-Hard-line. UGH!!! What were we to do but respect the Red Tag and try the other hard routes. Dave and I obsessed over the topic of red tags for the whole week we were there. THIS route and situation was our example of how red tags are unacceptable. Dave Graham and I have grown up climbing with the idea of closed projects being very taboo and irrelevant. Call that a blessing I guess… We were lucky enough to have the option to bolt lines and climb them or climb projects that were bolted by others. Closed projects were, and still are something we feel is degressive for rock climbing. It keeps the sport from moving forward. I understand the amount of work, the tiresome efforts it takes to equip a line…its HELLISH!!! Your climbing day is just as shot as your stomach muscles.The concept of a closed project is to keep the route for the equipper and NO one else. If the developer is in serious project mode and getting close, progressing, and currently working the route…it’s a respect issue….Let ‘em do it. BUT, if the route sits stagnant and there is no intentions of completing it while there are climbers there to DO it….why say “NO YOU CAN’T CLIMB IT”???? I don’t understand the benefits in that.I have been equipping routes here in Southern Utah and I understand how intense it is on you body…I understand the connection you will have with the route, I understand the drive you get to climb your project. But I don’t understand how I could EVER tell someone they can’t climb it. Thats me. I believe in progression and love to see rock climbing move forward the way it always has. Thats what makes climbing so unique. Lots of love Andy. Hope you send Boss…You will and you will love it. Outty.
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17 Comments
I am so new to the sport, so this is the first time I have heard about red tags. But, I can still have an opinion…LAME!! This is sooooo dumb. Okay, so if you are working something and don’t want anyone else to get on it, then get your butt out of bed earlier then everyone else and camp at it. Live at the route. But if you aren’t willing to just sit at the route, hogging it, then its open to anyone else. I’m sorry if thats offensive, but in any other sport…you would get kicked in the pants for telling others. “Oh, you know what, I’m working on my triple toe-loop, so you can’t skate on this ice rink right now.” “I am perfecting my jump shot, so you can’t use this basketball court right now.” “I am training for a bike race, so you can’t use this road right now”. HA!
I have read some pretty stupid things over at Mountain Project…people saying that if you climb 5.6s, then you suck and should really just go take up golf. But what if you enjoy a nice 5.6? What if your fat and can’t move your body up anything else? Hurt hands? Been sick…whatever. Doesn’t matter.
I think the thing people are missing is…CLIMBING is supposed to be FUN! FUN!!!!! If I can have fun on a 5.11…great! If you can have fun on a 5.14…great! If some 60 yr old can have fun on a 5.6… GREAT! If some 4 yr old can have fun on a 5.4… great!
Its awesome that Andy has worked so hard in Rifle and has jumped through all the red tape hoops and done some great things for the world of climbing, but get over yourself! Let others enjoy the rock too.
Okay, I’ve been part of those wild conversations on Mountain Project, and gotten my butt flamed big time. lol. Silly wabbits…
Tradition: You own the route once you start the project. You can spend the rest of your life developing it and working it. No one can touch it till you finish it. Headpoint. Redpoint. Pinkpoint. Duh, working it of course you’re not going to onsite or flash it. Then you own the bolts. No one can add/remove/alter your bolts without your permission. Forever. (not sure how they’re going to ask you once you’re dead).
Of course, then there’s the retro-trad granolas and soloistas who will sneak up and chop your bolts, cause they can do it in the dark blindfolded with no pro and you’re a pansy for using bolts on their pristine rock. And if you can’t do it in their ethical dimension you should be curling or some other gentlemanly endeavor.
New Wave: Okay, if you can’t do it in a year, maybe you should go back to the gym? Isn’t modern practice that someone works a route for like 3 years, then some 15 yr-old flashes it the week after? Not to be rude to the developer, and maybe they were having a ton of fun doing it, but that points out the apparent discrepancy in abilities, and perhaps they should be developing beautiful low-grade climbs that are actually contributing to the sport, rather than degrade it.
Doh!
Right on Joe.
Anyway, just my evil $.02 (from someone who hates golf and doesn’t have much interest in curling either)
Sure, maybe red tags are lame if you don’t have a regular job and can climb any day you want to.
Some of us have regular jobs and would like first crack at a route we’ve spent a couple days where we could have been climbing, bolting and cleaning.
With regard to the notion that its regressive, maybe at the top end it is. But if I bolt something mid 12 the sport isn’t suffering if I take 3 months to send it. At the top end maybe it’s a little different. Maybe if you’ve FA’ed someone elses open projects you should leave your projects open.
But at the end of the day, it’s about respect. Someone else put in that time and effort, and waded through the red tape to get a bolting permit. Sure, you didn’t climb it, but even bitching about it shows a lack of respect.
Dave, I have a regular job, and can’t climb anytime I wish, but if I had a project I was working and wanted to be sure that it was available for me at the times I needed it (meaning, the times I didn’t have to work), then I would get up early in the morning, head to my crag and beat everyone else there. Then I would have a wicked day having fun on my route. If you want the door buster sale at Target on December 26th, you don’t put a sign up saying, “I am in line first”–instead you get up at 1am and camp out! Thats life.
The early bird gets the worm.
Dave, You talk about respect and lack of respect, and yet, it seems from your first comment about “regular jobs” and “climb any day you want to” you have little respect for someone (Joe) who happens to have mad skills, has worked very hard to be one of the best and gets paid to climb. Jealous?
heh heh, am I jealous I can’t climb hard? hell yeah! But I’m pretty happy with my work/climb balance thanks. I don’t know Joe, but I respect his climbing and his obvious stoke. This blog is one of the more interesting climbing blogs out there.
Look, it’s a funny thing, red tagging. Working a project is different from projecting a sport FA. And I absolutely think red tagging has limits. I’d say a few months, a season at most.
I’m fairly certain you and Rick there have never put up a route. It’s a lot of work. On a couple of occassions, I have spent 3 entire days equiping, but mostly cleaning, a sport route on choss. That’s a lot of free time, and a lot of effort. Plus you’re totally shredded after hanging in a harness all day working with a hammer and a drill. I can barely climb 5.8 after all that!
Is it that unreasonable to grant someone who put in that work an opportunity to FA the route if they want? Plus the cash. Maybe Joe gets his bolts free, but I think it’s about $6 for a bolt and hanger combo, with anchors, you’re talking 60-80 bucks to put up a route?
Anyway, I just wanted to offer my comment as a contrast to Joe’s. He’s had his say, here and on MVM. I wouldn’t say it is a one sided issue.
I myself have put up about 50 sport routes. I have never red tagged any of them. Didn’t have to, they were in secret areas, and I knew everyone else there. I let my friends on to routes I bolted and they sent them, and I was psyched! And they reciprocated some times. Other times, someone would bolt a prime line, and we’d stay off it out of respect, unless offered a crack at it.
Joe even mentions something like this… this is the ONLY route Andy has ever red tagged! Is it really that hard to respect that? Andy isn’t leaving red tags all over rifle.
You make a number of comparisons to other sports. And none of them are apt at all. That’s what makes climbing so great, it’s different! You talk about getting there first, early bird and the worm. Well, what if I bolt a .12b and my hardest climb to date is .11c. I work it for two days, leave a red tag on for my rest day, and someone comes along and sends it? I realize you’re psyched on 5.6 so you don’t care, but maybe I do?
The basketball and the ice skating comparisons are silly as well, won’t even get into that one.
You admitted you’re new to the sport and this is the first you have heard of the red tags. Maybe your opinion is then uninformed? Since it’s based just on Joe’s blog? And you’re telling Andy to get over himself?
Anyway, at the end of the day a red tag is a request. It’s a request that you respect the work and effort put in to the route. It’s up to you to decide what kind of climber you want to be, whether to respect that request (and what it represents) or not. Respect.
Dave, Thanks for your comment. And thanks for enlightening me. I was under the assumption that you were “okay” with people red tagging for years and years and never letting a single person on a route. That bites! So, your comment, “I absolutely think red tagging has limits. I’d say a few months, a season at most.” is awesome!
I can totally understand how bad it would suck if you were bolting a route, went home for the day or week etc, and came back and someone was on it. But again, I was under the assumption of the 3-years- of-red-tagging-something idea. Take a season and rock it! Get that accomplishment, but then let others get some accomplishment from it too.
Kudos to you for bolting routes. Thanks from the whole climbing community! And for the record…I have only been climbing for 10 months and I climb 5.11. But even if I did climb 5.6, why does it matter? And as for ice skating, the axel is a sucky jump, and I don’t recommend it!
If its just about the climbing, then climb the route and dont take the points, or just fall off the last move…hehe
Thats what I’m talkin bout Joe. On the Block posted up like a mailbox. Rocks are there to climb, all the projects I have bolted are open, and will never close, never mind the work. The idea of “opening” is not to close, savez???
If you don’t like red tags, then put up your own new route. There are plenty of good projects out there to be done, and not nearly enough people who want to put in the time to establish a good route.
what do “degressive” mean?
humans are strange creatures. we think that we own things like land and rock and dogs and trees and words and routes(this ownership thing is such strange concept in a community). my theory, we all take ourselves a little too seriously. we’ve trampled our way to the top of the heap and now whine about the most worthless subjects(guilty).
as you can tell, i have no real opinion on red tag sales. i’ve never heard of such a thing. sounds like columbus syndrome- the discoverer immediately owns what he/she finds, even if it’s somebody elses or in this case public property(a public crag). don’t forget the kings fifth. ownership is something that came about out of the need to control others. it’s an illusion and i don’t really see the need for it, especially in climbing.
props to andy on the vision and word to joe on the send.
but i “digress.” i really just wanted to make fun of joes grammar.
Jacob: Interesting how you intend to make fun of grammer, when the word “degressive” was used correctly. Especially interesting how you intend to make fun of someone’s grammer when reading your first sentence.
Pot.
Kettle.
That kind of thing..
my bad. i honestly never heard of the word(i’m not an accountant). i should have done my reasearch.
as for my first sentence…come on, it was obviously a joke.
but thanks for the correction of my correction.
now if i could only get my foot out of my mouth…
i do not agree with red tagging without a reasonable expiration. it is reasonable to give someone a chance to reel in something they put effort into. one season seems to make sense. much longer than that seems like an undue constraint on the community. regardless, i would argue that if the developer came up with his or her own cash to equip the route [rather than freebees from a sponsor, for instance], etiquette would dictate that some level of reimbursement should be given the developer. my understanding is that the price of hardware can really add up for longer climbs. many of us have seen solano’s ‘the life’ and dg forking out the dollars for his FA in rumney. seems like a reasonable practice. if it is a certainty that the developer got the gear for free, then no reimbursement, that’s the gear company’s contribution to the community … more two cent action.
Wow what a shitstorm.
Don’t know about this route obviously Joe, but I still have a bit of old school ethic in me that says the guy who bolts the route should get a decent chance to get the FA (If that’s what they want). Obviously it’s all subjective and up to the individuals what they think is or isn’t cool, but if someone is actively trying a route still than I think it’s pretty uncool to whip it from under them. But if it’s been sitting around for more than a year and they arn’t trying the thing it should be opened up and I would have no problem getting on it.
It’s a little different on your lines Dave as unless it is somewhere with a lot of high end traffic there is very little chance of someone getting it first. When you bolt a line where there are a number of other climbers who could send it quickly if you don’t tag it it will be gone the first day after you bolted it before you even got a chance. That’s pretty stink after you have put in a couple days effort and cash equipping it..
Good on you guys for repecting the tag in this case anyway cause I know lots who wouldn’t. Later
There only reason anyone would want to red-tag a route: fame. Seriously. That’s all it boils down to. You want your name on that piece of paper because you are the one that did all the hard work. What difference should it make who climbed it first? Be happy that you’re the one who bolted, cleaned, and was able to share this awesome route with the word.
Bringing the word “respect” into the argument is the only way anyone can defend the standpoint that red-tagging is legitimate. The whole attitude of red-tagging is pure selfishness; I did all the work so I get to do it first. I put all the bolts in so I should be allowed to use them first. Grow up - learn to share.
I have been reading this whole mess on red tagging since checking out the clip on MVM. Firstly, congrats to Joe on making his point clear without offending. Its easy to get pissed and whine, but making a point respectively is hard at times. As a Rumney born and bred boy I tend to side with whatever Dave and Joe would say since I stare at their routes in awe every time i hit the crags. However, that said I have to say that red tagging simply makes the sport stand still. If new routes aren’t being climbed constantly then the sport will stagnate and none of us want that. So get strong, bolt the route, and send it. If you can’t, then be excited you did something so awesome for the community. Thanks to all who bolt, we appreciate it! In the case of people who fall in love with a route they bolt, are you any less excited about how great the moves are simply cause somebody else pulled them already? P.S. Dave or Joe, either of you guys coming home anytime to try Vasya’s new route?
I saw a few discussions on that subject and I think it all boils down to this.
Red tagging is detrimental to climbing in general in two ways:
1-Putting up red tags slows down the progression of the sport.
2-Not respecting red tags slows down the progression of the sport.
These two points seem to contradict themselves but they don’t really, as a lot of people act with those two beliefs in their minds. They always bolt open project, yet mostly respect red tags.
Point 1 is easy to strengthen by observing how climbing has progressed. Areas with more hard routes for people to try breed more strong climbers. It’s that simple. It is always easier to send your hardest next to your home than on a trip halfway around the world. The best setting to get better in this sport is to have access to lots of routes of all levels when you want. With red tags, the top end gets shaved off and the sport locally progresses at the speed of the people who bolted the projects, which is quite arbitrary and probably not the fastest, since they red tagged their routes to prevent them from being sent as fast as possible in the first place.
Point 2 is equally important. People who bolt routes are rare. How many? 1 in 100 climbers? 1 in 1000? I can count them on my hands for all of Quebec!
Why are they so rare? For a few reasons, one of them was mentionned a few times, hard work, tools, money, etc. This is pretty easy to understand. Anyone who thought they felt new muscles when they started climbing will feel newer muscles still when they start bolting (especially overhangs with £¢!”/$ quartz veins with cheap drill bits).
Another reason mentionned in Joe’s original post that seems to be a bit overlooked by the rest of the thread is vision.
Vision is a very important part of first ascents. It is the product of imagination and the desire to define what’s possible. This is the quality that makes people who put in the time and effort to bolt projects at the top end rare. They have to believe something is possible first and act on it.
Not respecting red tags is detrimental to those people and their work. Bolting is usually a selfish endeavor, even for the altruistic climbers who only bolt open projects. You bolt it because you want to see if it’s possible and because you imagine yourself climbing it. Some are attached to the FA, some aren’t. Getting a bit of slack from the climbing community to try your new project seems only natural and respectful.
These people are a resource for the climbing community. In that case, especially, it seems that even fewer people will bolt routes at Rifle because of administrative issues. That makes them valuable resources. You wouldn’t destroy a beautiful crag by chipping every new route you bolt, well you shouldn’t make the few people who bolt want to quit either. Resource management.
The correct decision here seems to be to respect’s Andy’s tag, even if you disagree with his decision. Yup it might be slower to let him send the project first, but he will stay psyched to bolt other routes after that, and I guess some of them will be open.
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[...] came across an interesting discussion over on Joe Kinder’s blog about the idea of red tagging a route. He was talking about how he went out to Rifle with Dave [...]
[...] in Rifle by last fall, Dave Graham and Joe Kinder were itching to get on something harder. Kinder posted on his blog about how he felt the continued closure of this Bauhaus project was “degressive” for the sport [...]
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