Live and Learn, Bolt Smart

I have gotten a few emails, messages informing me of a serious situation regarding hardware I used on the route Southern Smoke in the Red River Gorge. This is a serious topic and needs to be addressed.

Jon Dicky Photo of Southern Smoke.

Jon Dicky Photo of Southern Smoke.

I bolted Southern Smoke two years ago during a stay in the Red. I remembered being blown away with the aesthetics of the line during my sessions trying 50 Words For Pump. I would constantly look over and seek out holds and any sort of path. When the situation arose to actually borrow a drill and make it happen I was ecstatic! It was basically the first route I bolted that wasn’t a link-up or a variation. It felt great drilling those holes and putting those bolts in. I was pioneering a line, and a RAD line! It’s funny to look back at my rigging system which was absolutely ridiculous. I did it top-down and used a cam at the base of the cliff for a directional line to wench in with. On a 45 degree wall that is absolutely ludicrous. Hooks blew in my face and it took me HOURS over 2 days to get like 3 bolts in. Funny stuff. I actually remember running up to the cliff at night one time, because I couldn’t wait and had to finish the line so that we could climb on it. I was utterly impatient.

Petzl Bolts are great material, but can be finicky in holes and sometimes are hard to tighten.

Petzl Bolts are great material, but can be finicky in holes and sometimes are hard to tighten.

At the time I borrowed a friends drill, hangers and bought my own bolts at Home Depot. I went in asked a sales person if they carried “expansion bolts” and he directed me to the aisle. I couldn’t believe it was that easy to obtain those bad boys at Home Depot! It was just perfect.
20081122-111111

Anyway… Long story short, we climbed the line, had a blast doing it and during the same stint I bolted another one at the Drive By Crag with the same borrowed drill, same borrowed hangers and same bolts from Home Depot. This one I never got to climb and someone else scooped it up. My bolting bug started full force from that era in the Red River Gorge and I still have it… probably worse. I have learned some things and honed the skills that only experience and asking questions can iron out. It’s great how you get a system and even become stronger from the activity. It’s addicting as climbing.

Red Heads... MAJOR thumbs down.  Avoid these bolts everyone.

Red Heads... MAJOR thumbs down. Avoid these bolts everyone.

During my last day in the Red River Gorge we were packing up due to junk weather and too many grey days. Kenny Barker called me over to his trailer and handed me a box of Powers bolts and a huge 1/2″ drill bit. I opened up the box and couldn’t believe how large the bolts were. They were 1/2″ and 4″ long. HUGE. He said something to me in the means of “we need you doing this right, if you are going to be doing it”. At that point I was very new to the bolting endeavor and immediately thought about what I was using. Which was 1/2″ X 3″ Red Heads. I showed Kenny and he laughed with total pitty. I then understood that the hardware I put into the rock in Red River Gorge was NOT sound and was NOT going to last long. It stressed me out and I gathered as much information about the bolts I used. Dario Ventura (who has bolted a lot in the Red) informed me as well that he seldom uses Red Heads in Southern sandstone as it corrodes quickly in the moist season and is not long lasting. For me to learn all of this it was a huge smack to the face as I had NO clue.

Standard expansion bolt.  Powers is what I have been told is the best for most stone.  Notice the rod is one solid piece of steel, the threads are sunk deep in the rock.  THE most solid bolt to use.

Standard expansion bolt. Powers is what I have been told is the best for most stone. Notice the rod is one solid piece of steel, the threads are sunk deep in the rock. THE most solid bolt to use.

My plan from them was to head back to the Red in the Spring of 2009, that never happened. Then my plan was to head back in the Fall of 2009, that never happened. And this season I am not heading back as I am wrapped up in projects here. My intentions were to get back and re-bolt those two routes with solid hardware as I use now. I have since sent out some 1/2″X4″ Powers Rawl Fasteners to Dario Ventura who assured me that these routes would be taken care of. I asked him if he could not take care of it immediately to please ask someone else who is capable. He confirmed to me that he would. I urged him with the sooner the better.

Home Depot bought Red Heads... Avoid these for bolting routes.  This is the brand I used and DO NOT RECOMMEND.  The are not stainless steel, the threads create weak points, the sleeve over the stud makes for the actual size of the bolt to be smaller than the size you want.

Home Depot bought Red Heads... Avoid these for bolting routes. This is the brand I used and DO NOT RECOMMEND. The are not stainless steel, the threads create weak points, the sleeve over the stud makes for the actual size of the bolt to be smaller than the size you want.

The situation is downright embarrassing, irresponsible and something that I have learned a drastic lesson over. I do not think anyone was hurt but I was told that one of the bolts “failed”. Shocking. I apologize deeply and sincerely to all of the Red River Gorge climbers. The only actions I am able to take now are to practice the safest and sound methods that I have learned from Todd Perkins, Jorge Visser, Chris Sharma, Dani Andrada, and Randy Leavitt. These are people whom I have asked hundreds questions and exchanged many emails over the topic of bolting methods, gear, hardware and stone.

Sent to Dario at Miguels.  1/2 inch thick and 4 inches long  Powers.

Sent to Dario at Miguels. 1/2 inch thick and 4 inches long Powers.

This really is an endeavor for someone that wants to invest and learn. It is a craft and is not something I suggest for anyone who is just psyched to climb that rad line like me and Southern Smoke. There are the right ways and there are the wrong. And this can simply and ONLY be learned from someone who knows what they are doing. Apprentice someone if you have to, assist and learn the ways. Have a guide teach you…. or just take it from me… first and foremost use the proper gear, as the bolts are what is left in the stone for the next person.

Again, to the climbers of the Red River Gorge…. I am sincerely sorry.

SL - March 28, 2010 - 6:17 pm

Powers doesn’t make a 1/2 x 4″ Powerbolt in either plated or SS. They are either 2.75″ or 3.75″ long in the plated 1/2″ version or 2.75″ or 4.75″ long in the SS 1/2″ version.

Louie Anderson - March 28, 2010 - 6:49 pm

Props for having the humility to write this and the integrity to see to it that your route is upgraded with the proper hardware.

Everyone goes through this learning curve – I’m glad you’ve seen the light so early in your bolting career.

Climbing Islove - March 28, 2010 - 7:01 pm

I made some critical comments about the public relations campaign you’ve mounted for you new-routing efforts. But your statements above are immensely respectable. I sincerely commend you for responsibly owning up to past mistakes so transparently. Keep up the good work.

keith - March 28, 2010 - 7:20 pm

joe – i just bolted a climb (by hand. too poor for a power drill. took forever) and used fixe triplex bolts. as far as i understand, these are made specifically for climbing, and are recommended for softer stones as they tighten when they’re loaded. do you have any words on these bad boys? http://www.fixeusa.com/triplex.htm

Tyler - March 29, 2010 - 1:05 am

Joe,

Never met you, but I’ve seen you around a couple times. Major props to you for your contribution to the climbing community. I haven’t been to the gorge, but good on you for responsibly owning your mistake and taking it a honorable step further to correct it.

I check your blog everyday and really enjoy seeing your journey’s with climbing. Please keep it up.

jd leblanc - March 29, 2010 - 7:15 am

Joe – good thoughts and info – up here in Canada, the bow valley, Acephale. We used standard wedge anchors – hilti 3/8″ x 3,3/4″ kwik bolts – they work well in Limestone. However, the 3 piece bolts are truly better – they were hard to locate back then in Canada. The one thing to not is that 1/2″ 3-piece bolts are a 3/8″ bolt – so you can still use normal hangers. If one was to use 3/8″ 3-piece the stud itself would be too small for hangers.

Another thing – the 3-piece bolts do wear out in the soft sandstone, as i’m sure you noticed in Red Rocks – some of them bolts are terrible.

Have you guys tried glue-in’s for the RRG?

Punter’s got a good glue-in set up

Cheers, jd

jd leblanc - March 29, 2010 - 7:18 am

oops, forgot to add this – i have used Fixe stuff before and they are odd, the expansion bolt mechanical sleeve has not activated on 3 bolts – which to me is 3 too many – and they pulled right out of the hole – i went crashing onto the boulder at the base of the rig. Now FYI, i have place a lot of bolts and this was the first time that ever happened, then it happeded 2 more times – not boulder landing, just air with bolting gear …

Eric - March 29, 2010 - 7:31 am

Joe – tremendous respect for someone willing to continue to learn, improve, and be humble at your level. Not only owning the error, but taking steps to right it as well, is wholly commendable. Props!

dave - March 29, 2010 - 9:18 am

Big no no, but well done owning up to it and seeing that people know the situation and taking steps to pull and replace the junk.

LJH - March 29, 2010 - 9:50 am

Way to go Joe, a lesser man would have stood steadfastly, if inappropriately on his ground and found some way to justify, rather than rectify, his actions.

I am stoked on your fervor for FAs. Many strong climbers shy away from this endeavor as it can take a LOT out of your personal time. Keep at it and thanks for the update and the sweet lines!

;-)
Lisa

Anthony - March 29, 2010 - 9:56 am

Joe- The interview you gave really showed how you are trying to grow the sport, I seriously was inspired by what you wrote along with this recent response. You got the boltin bug and man don’t back down from trying to bring something to the table….haters be damned!! I would clip into anything you would put up man!

Bill Strachan - March 29, 2010 - 10:22 am

Joe,
Thank you for your thoughtful post and for your efforts to set things straight on Southern Smoke. Thanks also to you, Kenny, and Dario for demonstrating what it means to be responsible climbers. Responsible climbing is our ethic at the Red. Part of being a responsible climber is to point out any unsafe situation which is exactly what Kenny did. You then wisely headed his advice and took it upon yourself to learn more and spread the word. As local developer Terry Kindred once said about bolting, “This is ROCK science, not rockET science”. Hopefully your example will encourage more climbers to heed the advice of others, no matter what level they are at in the sport. The consequences of not heeding such advice could mean a serious injury if not worse.

Glue-ins are being used in certain scenarios in the Red. There is currently a grassroots effort to replace all of the bolts at the Funk Rock City with stainless steel glue-ins because this crag is located in Clifty Wilderness Area. Rick Weber, the owner of Muir Valley, has developed a bolting manual covering the fine points of bolting our lovely Kentucky sandstone. He is happy to share it with anyone that is interested and can be contacted at rweber(at)accenttech(dot)com.

Joe, we would also be psyched to see you come back to visit us in the Red and we are keeping some fine Kentucky Bourbon just for the occasion.

Bill Strachan, Executive Director
Red River Gorge Climbers’ Coalition

Bill Strachan - March 29, 2010 - 10:29 am

No need to email Rick, here is a direct link to his manual – http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/BoltingRed17.pdf

WJ - March 29, 2010 - 11:49 am

Joe, good job owning up to your mistakes. I have had to do that also, and although it sucks to admit to it and it’s embarrassing. It is always the right thing to do.
However, whenever I bolt a line. I always use Red Heads. I use either 3/8″ or 1/2″ X 3 3/4″ or 4″ SS bolts. I have fallen on them MANY times, and they do just fine. I have routes that are a few years old, and they bolts and hangers still look new.
I have never used Powers or Petzl so I can not say anything about those. But Red Heads are just fine to use for granite and limestone. Maybe not sandstone, but it is unfair to say to never use them. In my opinion, they are the best bolts for granite and limestone.
Thanks again though, keep it up though!

Robb - March 29, 2010 - 12:19 pm

Props to you Joe for doing the hard work and being open about your experience and mistakes.

Rene - March 29, 2010 - 12:23 pm

What a great entry Joe and thank you for sharing your experience with all. As a long time local of RRG it is even more appreciated that you looking to the future to keep routes as safe as possible. Concerning the glue-ins…they work great and get stronger with age, but are completely dependent on the rock quality as are most any bolt. Hope you can make it back to the Red soon. Best wishes!

Vincent Cocciolone - March 29, 2010 - 12:45 pm

Good lookin’ out. Thanks.

Hugh Loeffler - March 29, 2010 - 2:56 pm

Joe,
Good on you for pointing out your bolting short comings on your route at the Bob Marley. I think everyone can learn from you not only what the standard for bolting expected at the Red, but also, and more importantly, a great example in humility and self deprecation. THAT is the bigger and more needed service to the climbing community and of huge and lasting value.
As the guy who bolted fifty words, I can totally empathize with the work involved. It took me better part of four weeks to equip it with hooks blowing in my face, etc… As a consolation, you did the hard work for Dario. The gear you used, while it may suck for longevity, will make excellent aid bolts to re equip your line. He will be done in an afternoon.
Plenty of stone left down here. Come back soon.
Hugh Loeffler

KB - March 29, 2010 - 5:01 pm

psyched to see you learning and having a good time putting up new routes and giving back to the community. Can’t wait to try some of your routes in S. Utah. Have fun climb hard!

DC - March 29, 2010 - 6:54 pm

I’m not a bolter by any means, but why not use petzl long life bolts?…. Find good rock, drill, clean hole with air and brush several times, place it, hit it with a hammer, done deal. No worrying about all the extraneous variables.

kentuckyjoehaynes - March 30, 2010 - 3:28 am

whazup kid

ABC - March 30, 2010 - 5:35 am

Live and learn indeed.. Teaching us a good lesson in humility and self-improvement there. Impressive and inspiring in many ways. Keep up the amazing work and keep spreading the psyche!!

admin - March 30, 2010 - 12:07 pm

HEY JOE!!!! Give me a call sometime man 719-337-4587. Would LOVE to chat it up man.

admin - March 30, 2010 - 12:08 pm

Hugh… thank you so much for the comment. This was a big learning experience and dang…. And ya know!? I cannot WAIT to get back…. lets go bolt some routes man!

admin - March 30, 2010 - 12:12 pm

Bill… thank you for the comment. I think I might actually be able to sleep a little better. “Rock Science” for sure. The Red has some pretty exclusive stone and the one thing that people should know (folks interested in bolting) is that there is a very specific manner and hardware to be used. I never knew and the only way for others to be informed is from something like this happening. Basically raising awareness.
Hope to get back soon Bill and I am surely taking you up on that Bourbon gesture!

admin - March 30, 2010 - 12:19 pm

WJ… Red Heads aren’t trash. I don’t want to side with one bolt or another, But most bolters who I am spoken with advise against them. They have said things like “I wouldn’t use them where you would fall”, or “The stone’s porousness will corrode the metal”. And others have told me they have broken the bolt itself by tightening it. SOO… I don’t want to be biased, but after this experience I will advise against them.
Petzl bolts are great in quality, very nice to look at and hold… its great material. BUT, they are the only bolt I have had hangers spin off of repeatedly. I have had the stud just spin and not catch for tightening. And they are really expensive. SO… what I would recommend, is using a washer (which they don’t come with) or using some plumber’s putty over the nut so it stays on.

Powers seems to just be the most sound, solid and standard for most rock. And if you can search around a bit…. you can find some great deals on the RAWLs.

Great comment man…

admin - March 30, 2010 - 12:26 pm

Thank you all for the comments. This felt like a responsible and forward way to address this issue. I am very pleased that so many people have learned from my mistake and can now pass on the concern to anyone interested in bolting.

Suggestions would be:

1. always ask the local route equippers what the “standard hardware” is the that area

2. Practice bolting and gaining experience with someone well rehearsed in the endeavor.

3. Understand that making mistakes can be detrimental to the rock, people and the pure safety of people at the cliff.

4. Simply do your research and understand the right ways from the wrong.

Hope to see you all out climbing soon and thank you for reading and understanding. It isn’t easy screwing up, but when you do, it’s best to learn from it.

Sincerely

Joe Kinder.

Bryan - March 31, 2010 - 6:18 am

You’re the man Joe. Its nice to see people still take responsibility for their actions. Lets hope everyone else chooses to be held accountable.

James Lucas - April 1, 2010 - 9:37 am

This sort of thing happens all the time- people make mistakes bolting- different crags have different standards according to the rock there. 1/2″ goliath bolts don’t belong granite but they are nice in the softer rock at the Red. A little bit of a learning experience. Keep killin it Joe.

ha - April 1, 2010 - 9:05 pm

Word! Good on on you Joe. Rawls or glue ins are the only way. An the rawls should be stainless…anything else is trash. Even in our lovely desert…but especially in the wetty wetty RED!

We are so short sided and “cheap” as climbers. Placing plated trash in our beloved rock is so BAD. Spend the $$ or don’t bolt.

Much props to your psyche Joe!

Is the what is the route count at the Hurricave now?

ian - April 7, 2010 - 2:39 pm

Great job, homie. Reminds me of “The Watcher” by Dre.

QWMichael - April 19, 2010 - 1:27 am

No. But now i will. Thanks for that.

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